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Joli Minou · Senior Member

"Slaves" on GaiaOnline.com? (Slave vs. Submissive. Halp!)

MasterZak'skitty · Veteran Member

I have a Gaia acct.
I'd like to see that.
Perhaps help you defend your side.

I haven't really been a part of the scene at all, but I've had extended solo research (lol, that's not what it sounds like) and I understand what you mean by the differences between sub/slave.
You're correct.
Have you ever been to M/s town? All those little avies runnin' around beggin' for Masters & slaves. They just want to cyber, but they're abusing the language.
*shrug*
I don't let it bother me though. They'll get quite an education if they ever want to pursue anything outside their pixilated little world.

but your right about those actions making it harder to educate the vanilla world.

What's a kitty to do?

Saberrah · Senior Member

I've got gaiaonline.com. Darkbeaut is my username. I'm very much interested in reading this thread you're talking about. I usually stay clear of the threads and just do the different games they have on there and dress up the avi =^.^=
BDSM on gaia though is surprisingly high. I lost track of how many people I met on there (claiming to be 18 only to admit being much much MUCH younger later) who called themselves slaves or pets. I'd say it was three times as much as the ones calling themselves doms. Either way, I soon figured out it's best to just lock what game room I was in and stay clear of the populace on gaia.

Joli Minou · Senior Member

Here's the thread:

http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/general-discussion/what-are-your-views-of-s-m/t.40011179/

The actual "discussion" doesn't start until Page 179, though. I'm the one with the green text, and my new name on there is "Glitter High". ^^;;

And, hell, I or my Mistress friend might have been misconstruing things or whatever, but some of these peoples' attitudes don't help their cases, I don't think. :\

-- Edited by Joli Minou at 14:51, 2008-12-10

Joli Minou · Senior Member

I probably just need to chill. xD

Kitten · Senior Member

what is gaia?

janet · Senior Member

Disclaimer: I haven't read the threads, so I am a bit ignorant here. The poster could really be quite obnoxious and in need of a talking to.

That said, it doesn't bother me if people want to "misdefine" the terms sub/slave/pet/whatever. I think there are so many different shades and versions of BDSM that I don't really feel the terms can be defined, anyway. To me, it's something that has to be worked out between the people involved. I mean...I call myself a pet and a submissive, but I generally don't *obey*. I'd still fight for my right to the terms, though.

As long as the vanilla world doesn't equate sub with slave with ABUSE, I'm more than happy.

Saberrah · Senior Member

*Lets her head drop against the desk and sighs* I will say this....sounds like the majority on there have only half-assed their research for bdsm. And it speaks for their age that they take immediate offense when you're only trying to get them to clarify themselves. Ganging up on you just cause you're trying to make them think is rather immature. I'm not even done reading it all and I'm just shaking my head. There's definitely a reason I don't talk to anyone on gaia anymore *sighs*.
Most on there who claim to be in a "real bdsm relationship" are only roleplayers. And a good deal of them on there are faking their age so that they can appear legal. I highly doubt the one "slave" you're asking question of is really 18. By her responses, I'd say she's more closer to 15. So, with that in mind...teenagers love to argue and take offense rather than actually try to learn and discuss. I can definitely understand why you got SO frustrated. It's frustrating just reading the responses you got.

Saberrah · Senior Member

I had to respond....it drove me nuts how many people where attacking you...and for those not on gaia....here was my response:

I think what Glitter High was really trying to get at was for people to make their view points clearer and to discus. Not attack. Yes, there are many views on how pet/sub/slave should be taken, and it honestly seems to me that all she was doing was trying to get clarification.

In my research of the lifestye (going on five years now) I have come to learn that there is definitely a view on which each term means. I consider myself a pet. I'm highly into kitty play and I'm lousy at following orders, but I do try my best to follow them. I remember a friend telling me, when I was first showing interest in the lifestyle, that the terms can basically be broken down to this - Slave: Someone who gives total control over to her/his Owner (Master/Dom) and cannot say no, (they can however point things out if something is going in a way that shouldn't or that will cause them or the Owner harm).
Sub: Someone who gives consent to the Dom; has the right to say yes or no and can stop a scene at any time.
Pet: Someone who can get away will a hell of a lot more than a sub or slave. (That definition always made me laugh, cause in a sense, it's kinda true. For myself at least)

These three definitions my not apply to everyone, and many probably have there own definitions. To tell someone "Go back and learn" is in a sense rude, cause having this discussion, to have people clarify themselves, is exactly what the person is trying to do. You may have real life experience, or your knowledge can (more than likely) be just pure roleplay. And if you're someone who is truly in the lifestyle trying to discus something as sensitive as bdsm with roleplayers, clarification is a must. Yelling at someone to be open minded is useless if you're not going to be so back. If you're offended by what someone says about your bdsm relationship, then take the time and share your viewpoints.

Saberrah · Senior Member

Kitten wrote:

what is gaia?

Gaiaonline is an (obviously) online community. You get an avi that you can dress up, you can play games, discus your fave topics on forums, keep in touch with friends/make new friends, do quests. Basically anything. It's really meant for young teens, but so many have been on there for years, and even the older generations are joining it now. It's kinda fun, but so many on there lie about their age, and it's all drama drama drama. But, here's the link if you wish to check it out for yourself.

http://www.gaiaonline.com/

w1ntermute · Senior Member

Kitten wrote:

what is gaia?

Let me google that for you.

On topic: in response to the original post, and after reading a couple pages of that thread on gaia, it seems to me that its boiled down to semantics. If neither of you give in on one or two points, nothing will get resolved.

As a latecomer to this... thing, it seems to me that by defending your point you've lost sight of something thats a pretty popular theme on these forums. Weather or not its about pets, subs, or slaves, they have different rules for each individual person, since these things are centered around relationships of one type or another. By defining what somebody is FOR them, you're backing yourself into a corner.

I think the wikipedia definiton in the first paragraph speaks for itself in its ambiguity, therefore letting people define the finer points for themselves.

Master/slave or M/s relationships are a special case of dominance/submission, in which through mutual agreement, the dominant has ultimate authority over the submissive. Some practitioners of M/s believe that ownership of slaves is based on an inescapable emotional state, such as total power exchange (TPE). It should be noted that the owner/slave relationship is usually entered into on a consensual basis, without the legal force of historical or modern non-consensual slavery, which is forbidden by the laws of most countries.

Joli Minou · Senior Member

Aww, thank you SO MUCH Saberrah, and wintermute for your very true point, which Sir actually said as well, lol.

I actually got into a PM conversation with one of the users in the thread, Sir Barton, who really helped me with the issue at hand and I've decided to just leave that thread be. I probably should have just kept my thoughts to myself; there's no swaying people on the internet anyway, lol.

I wish they would have paid attention to where I stated that I was pretty much copying and pasting my conversation with my Domme friend, almost none of what I even posted were my own words. She has trained as a Gorean slave, and what I think happened was that when she hears "slave" she hears "Gorean" and is deeply offended by a teenager calling herself such because of what all she has personally been through to earn the title. *Sigh*

Saberrah · Senior Member

Yeah, that guy messaged me as well...which I thought was just a useless way to continue arguing. Apparently he took offense cause I said something along the line that there were probably more role players than actual lifestylers on gaia.
I pretty much just got frustrated since everyone kept saying "go learn your facts" instead of actually taking the time to explain themselves, regardless if the comment or question was rude or not. Cause honestly...I totally understood the points you threw out. They didn't seem like "personal attacks" at all, but rather, points for people to try to debate and clarify, or at the very least, think over. People are just too sensitive on that thread. I'd rather chat with someone who's actually mature (who knew a bunch of kitties would be the mature ones =O.o= *laughs*).

Joli Minou · Senior Member

LMAO. Seriously!

Meh. Thanks again, though, and I'm sorry you had to deal with that. xD

Saberrah · Senior Member

No worries. It was kinda entertaining. Say one thing that's not even directed at a particular person and they all ganged up to defend the guy. Sir was rolling his eyes at the whole thing. People take offense too easily on that site.

Joli Minou · Senior Member

It's true. I'll admit, though, I'm guily of it too. Lol.

You guys rock. ^_^

(Edit: For the record, I think our "Mistress Lithia" friend just enjoys arguing about stupid crap. hmm

)

-- Edited by Joli Minou at 14:12, 2008-12-12

Saberrah · Senior Member

I think so to! Seriously, "Usually" doesn't mean "Always" or "Never". Sheesh. Thanks very much for the dictionary reference. I was very careful with my wording before she started arguing with it. I just don't understand where she's not getting it. *Rolls her eyes*

MasterZak'skitty · Veteran Member

wow... I finally looked at that thread.

I didn't get into it, because I don't like "debating" with folks who take everything as a personal attack. I mean, geesh. I'd rather talk it out w/ mature people, and since I have a slightly differing viewpoint, you are welcome to continue the discussion w/ me here.

I will say this, while I see the both points involved (yours & the others), I am a little more inclined to agree w/ kcscooters definition of a slave (a "little", and she didn't give much of one)

I will also agree w/ wintermute in that I think these relationships take on their own personal definition per the players involved.

Jynx Darkitten · Senior Member

i tend to stay away from the so called doms and subs on gaia and stay on my furry guilds and such those idoits dont know a damn thing and the ones that do are now a dime a dozen

Mynx · Senior Member

I don't even touch the forums on Gaia much anymore. I used to be an avid roleplayer, but then things started spiraling downhill. It's hard to find people who make sense on there these days it seems.

Faete · Senior Member

Sub Vs. Slave seem to have a lot of different meanings, the one I think is most agreed upon (or I see most often) is that a slave has no hard limits, while a sub does. Not only that, but subs tend to be more "on/off" meaning, they can stop the "scene" whenever they like.

MissAbsinthe · Senior Member

I joined gaia from the day it started, and i have never ceased to see what I call "slave newb" threads, especially those damn slave role plays, like slave pet shop etc! They are all like 12-14 *shakes head sadly*

Joli Minou · Senior Member

Gawd, I know! >.

janet · Senior Member

Faete, do you really think that any human being can have no hard limits? I mean, someone can say that they don't, but I don't know if I could ever believe that.

Faete · Senior Member

janet wrote:

Faete, do you really think that any human being can have no hard limits? I mean, someone can say that they don't, but I don't know if I could ever believe that.

Yes, I do believe that someone could have no hard limits. Here is why:

A lot of people seem to think that being a BDSM slave means that if you won't do ANYTHING that your Master/Mistress asks that you have limits. IE: Jumping off a bridge, rob a bank, etc, etc, etc.

However, thoes things are not fetishes. If your Master/Mistress wanted you to kill yourself or commit a crime, then I do not believe that falls within the area of consentual BDSM play.

If, however, you have a hard limit against something like, wearing PVC - but your Master has a fetish for it.. Then that is a limit. To me, no limits means: You can do whatever you will with me, as long as it does not cause any emotional or physical damage.

Personally, I consider myself to have no limits. It didn't happen right away though. Master gave me a BDSM checklist in the beginning of our relationships, and there were LOTS of things that I would not or could not do. We worked on all of thoes things, and after 5 years I can honestly say that with my *current* Master, I have no limits.

A LOT of that has to do with trust though. If (heaven forbid) something happened between my current Master and me, and I found a new Master or Mistress I know I would go nearly back to the beginning. A lot of the things that I trust Master to do with me, I could not trust someone else to do.

Also, I want to point out that it doesn't mean that I ENJOY doing everything he wants or asks me to do. It only means that I have gotten to the point where the things that scared me no longer do, and the things that I HATED I can do, but it doesn't mean I have to love it.

Master doesn't ask me to do things that I don't like *most* of the time. Most of the things which he knows I don't love doing are reserved for punishments. But, that doesn't mean that if he asked me to do them that I wouldn't.

Just my thoughts, and I know a lot of people's individual mileage will vary, but I DO think it is possible, and thoes are just my reasons why. Many people will have their own definitions (There's no right way to do BDSM) I just wanted to put in my .02

Daemonfelis · Senior Member

To me... what you just said is that you don't have expressed limits, and trust your master to not overstep them. When you say... "no limits means: You can do whatever you will with me, as long as it does not cause any emotional or physical damage." That implies that you do have limits, but they are just understood and the issue would not come up in the relationship then someone just met.
My personal feelings is that phrase is just a little misleading... and care should be taken when saying it.
I know a slave that technically has no limits. But... she is scared of snakes. To me, that is a limit. I know that if her master does anything with a snake, the relationship is over. But... that falls into the psychological harm category.
I do think it is a romantic gesture though, to say it.
I guess I just define things and see it a little bit differently in my head. I don't know.

Faete · Senior Member

Daemonfelis wrote:

"no limits means: You can do whatever you will with me, as long as it does not cause any emotional or physical damage." That implies that you do have limits, but they are just understood and the issue would not come up in the relationship then someone just met.

What I said was: I have no limits with my current Master. I believe this is true.

Of course, I am talking about a real relationship. A relationship which includes love and growth. Safety should never EVER be considered a limit.

From what you are saying.... If I want to be kept safe than thoes are limits. That doesn't make sense to me. Allowing my bones to get broken or to become physically disabled isn't an option.

I honestly do find it hard to believe that someone would consent to that. And, IF they DID consent to that, then they need help.

Also, I am not sure who I am misleading. Certainly not my Master. He and I have a very close relationship, and we will continue our no limit relationship. Part of being a Master is ensuring the safety of your slave. I don't mean from bumps and scrapes. The physical harm I am talking about is severe or cripling. Something that would prevent me from living a normal happy life. IE: Stab yourself, jump off a bridge, etc.

Daemonfelis · Senior Member

And what I said is that they are still there, just not in the forefront because of the relationship....

Am I reading this right? That safety should never be considered a limit as in... I should not consider the safety aspect of what I am doing? Safety should be disregarded as a limit?
Or that play should never even approach the borders of not being safe? I am a bit unsure of how to read that.

Consenting to that is a gray area really.... I mean, accidents happen. Especially when those participating are into heavy play and/or edge play. Just throwing out an example, a relatively benign thing in piercing play is to pierce the two cheeks. Seems simple enough. It heals quickly, most of the time there is very little blood. But, there is a nerve bundle in the cheek that if damaged can paralyze some of the muscles in the mouth, and affecting the movement of the mouth. It's a small chance that it can happen, but it sometimes does.

Or if a fireplay scene went awry... These are things that I have consented to do, but if something bad happens...
Both are -relatively- benign forms of edgeplay (ooh.. that's an oxymoron) that are fairly common limits, or could result in disfigurement if a serious accident happened.

How would... meat hook suspensions fit in with you?

And well... to jump yourself off a bridge.... Bungie jumping! Stab yourself.... Cuttings, scarification! Or maybe a branding... The main thing is to do each activity as safe as possible.

Heh. Sorry... Elaboration time. I am stuck in the mindset of catering to those that do not know. In an open discussion, especially with inexperienced persons, I get a bit put off when someone who has been in and educated for some length of time that they are without limits. I just try to interpret how a newbie might read into it. I have run into some bad experiences regarding thoughts like that.

But pay me no mind.... I was just being a little nitpicky as an excuse for my first post. I don't mean to upset... just get out there and learn. I do have to say, I disagree with your sub v. slave post. I have never really even heard it put that way. I wonder if it is because I hear it and have learned it from a public perspective instead of a private one... or if it is a regional thing.

I do apologize if I happen to put my foot in my mouth. It happens quite often.

Daemonfelis · Senior Member

Did I hit a character limit? The last few of my ramblings are gone....
Oh well, I apologize for derailing the thread, and what a hell of a first impression I have made.
*sighs*

Faete · Senior Member

Daemonfelis wrote:

Am I reading this right? That safety should never be considered a limit as in... I should not consider the safety aspect of what I am doing? Safety should be disregarded as a limit?
Or that play should never even approach the borders of not being safe? I am a bit unsure of how to read that.

I do apologize if I happen to put my foot in my mouth. It happens quite often.

Hey there, Sorry if I didn't explain myself properly. I know sometimes the tone of these are hard to read online, and I apologise if I sounded hostile. I didn't mean to come off that way.

When I said that safety should not be considered a limit I meant this:

It is every Master's job to ensure that their slave is in a fit state. Killing, maiming, bone breaking are NOT OK. It doesn't matter what kind of relationship you are in. They just aren't. Causing serious harm to ANYONE is a problem. Why should it be different from a slave?

Meat hook suspensions, play piercing, scarification, branding, and a whole host of other "more high risk" activities are not off the plate. All I am saying is that it is the job of BOTH parties to be educated and to make certain they are done right.

I am sorry if you took offence to me considering myself a no-limit slave. As I have mentioned in above postings, I don't mean in general. I consider myself to be a no limit slave with my *current* Master Only, and THAT is only due to years of us both working on my hard limits to get me to a place where I am OK with them.

I am 100% happy that you disagree with me. I am always happy to hear other's opinions. However, since you say you have never seen the definition I am putting forth, I would like to direct you to a few web resources:

http://www.steel-door.com/Submissive_vs_Slave.html
http://www.bestslavetraining.com/subvsslave.htm
www.fetlife.com (I am unable to provide a link to some of the discussions because you have to be logged in to see them, although the info I gave is the general consensus there as well).

Once again, I never said it is the "True and Only" way. Just that it is my opinion, and it is one that I live by. I hope I didn't offend you. Not my intent. I didn't mean to start anything, and I just wanted to put it out there as another way to go about things.

I also wanted to add, that most of my learnings have been of a public nature as well. However, I don't discredit everything I read online.

-- Edited by Faete at 04:25, 2008-12-23

Daemonfelis · Senior Member

*laughs*
I am sorry, I have grown up in the hostile tepid waters of forums of Gaia and the like.
I am kind of like a recovering boot camp victim that curls into a fetal position when someone within three feet raises a hand.
I just have the annoying tendency to try and pigeonhole and categorize and sub categorize every single thing.

And again. I was just nitpicking as an excuse to post. I spazzed.

Daemonfelis · Senior Member

I have a fetlife account too. No worries. Exact same name there. Just look for the flaming kitty in Louisiana.
*coughs* I, however, tend to shy away from internet explanations and take them with huge mountains of salt though. They let people like me in.

I have never, ever, ever, ever, etc. etc. been in any sort of relationship despite some odd three years in the public scene. SO! With that in mind, a lot of concepts are a bit alien and unfamiliar to me. Not to mention that most of all I know is secondhand knowledge. Hence my looking at everything as a newbie outsider.
I do hope to remedy that someday.

heavenspearl · Member

I have been playing gaiaonline for a few years I know exactly what your talking about. people do come and go thinking they know everything. lol my view point on it is that the girl obviously has no brains because excuse me for this term "slaves" if not trained properly and fully into there life style are mindless bimbos looking for someone to mooch off of basicaly I have been a Mistress for a very long time and I beleave there is a fine line between Sub's and Slaves.

but anyways sorry for ranting. I would really like to see it though it helps me better understand what NOT to do as I step foot into the new Sub world.

Joli Minou · Senior Member

LOL, that's okay. Thanks for your input! ^.^

kimonokitty · Senior Member

Well.. I'm a slave, but I'm certainly not a mindless bimbo.
That's the problem with generalities.

I am, however, definitely looking for someone to take care of me.
Not to mooch off of...
housewives don't mooch, but their husbands take care of them
I want the same thing