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kisa · Senior Member

using real fur

kitten130 · Veteran Member

That's part of the reason I'll never get one myself. Some may disagree, but I can't bear the thought of killing other kitties/foxes/etc. so I have "pretty fur"

I've always been against using real fur in jackets and stuff...I swore as a child that I'd never wear real fur, and to this day it remains that way.

The only thing I would wear fur wise is fake fur, which is what I made my tail out of.

kisa · Senior Member

i swore the same thing. i was just thinking about it and i guess i could see how pets would want to be as realistic as possible, feel as close as they could to their animal side with real fur... but to me, it's like killing family for their fur which is unforgivable.

-- Edited by kisa at 11:23, 2008-07-14

Mynx · Senior Member

I'm completely against the use of real fur. I love animals far too much to wear something that once belonged to them. I suppose you could say I see it as stealing from them.

Kitten · Senior Member

i would never use a real tail, to me its just not right, and i am against real fur being used these days because there is more morality in it now. i do own a real fur coat which was given to me when i was younger but i never wear it and never will.

then again a lot of 'fake' furs do have some real fur, and some 'real' fur is infact fake

Faete · Senior Member

I fully respect anyone who wishes to use real fur.. But it just isn't something I am personally comfortable with. :)

kitten130 · Veteran Member

Kitten wrote:
then again a lot of 'fake' furs do have some real fur, and some 'real' fur is infact fake

You know I've heard that...and I sincerely hope its not true...but the fake fur I got was like extremly cheap so Im hoping its 100% fake. (at least it says it is..or at least it's just shaved off of a sheep or goat to make it feel better in the summer, and not CUT off...hmmmmmmmm evileye )

I'm not going to lie and say those foxtail buttplugs arent beautiful, because they ARE...but not for me.

kisa · Senior Member

Kitten wrote:

then again a lot of 'fake' furs do have some real fur, and some 'real' fur is infact fake

It is true. it's mostly found in clothing products claiming to have fake fur, especially if they were made in china. Due to the cat and dog trade, cheap real fur is much easier and less expensive than faux fur. Has anyone seen the video's of the mistreatment of the poor kitties and dogs? It's so sad.

Faete · Senior Member

Kitten wrote:

Has anyone seen the video's of the mistreatment of the poor kitties and dogs? It's so sad.

No way. I could never bear to watch it. Whenever the local shelter puts a commercial on the TV, I nearly melt and ask Master if we can adopt all the kitties! :) But, I also don't wear fur..

kitten130 · Veteran Member

I save myself the grief and refuse to watch that video of the China fur farms. I see enough disturbing things human wise(blood and guts), I really dont want to see something horrible with animals, especially if it's inflicted.

The ASPCA commercial always tears me up...the combination of the sad eyes and Sarah MacLaughlin's "Angel"...oh man. I can't even bear to go in the animal shelter here because they all look up so hopeful hoping you take them home, then you leave and they're looking like "where are you going?!"

Now I'm not sure if I want to wear the fake fur if that's the case....O_O I dont think it was made in China, the kind I got..but you never know. =\

DarkNeko · Veteran Member

I believe more in how the American Indians where when they had to kill a animal. They did it for food, clothing, shelter. No part of the animal was wasted and that I find respectable as it was (and some cultures is currently still) a way of life. As such I will not buy something that was killed just so it could be turned into a coat or a tail or any other such petty "fashion" items.

Joli Minou · Senior Member

DarkNeko wrote:

I believe more in how the American Indians where when they had to kill a animal. They did it for food, clothing, shelter. No part of the animal was wasted and that I find respectable as it was (and some cultures is currently still) a way of life. As such I will not buy something that was killed just so it could be turned into a coat or a tail or any other such petty "fashion" items.

Here, here! My thoughts exactly. ^.^

Fecking trophy hunters... *hiss*

DarkNeko · Veteran Member

Joli Minou wrote:

DarkNeko wrote:

I believe more in how the American Indians where when they had to kill a animal. They did it for food, clothing, shelter. No part of the animal was wasted and that I find respectable as it was (and some cultures is currently still) a way of life. As such I will not buy something that was killed just so it could be turned into a coat or a tail or any other such petty "fashion" items.

Here, here! My thoughts exactly. ^.^

Fecking trophy hunters... *hiss*

Not even that....a trophy hunter kills and has to live with knowing what they've done. Somone who just bought the skin/fur to wear never go's through that feeling. >_>

Joli Minou · Senior Member

That was just a bitter afterthought, lol.

Kitten · Senior Member

a lot of people buy the fur (real) but then dont know or dont even care where it came from

kisa · Senior Member

DarkNeko wrote:

I believe more in how the American Indians where when they had to kill a animal. They did it for food, clothing, shelter. No part of the animal was wasted and that I find respectable as it was (and some cultures is currently still) a way of life. As such I will not buy something that was killed just so it could be turned into a coat or a tail or any other such petty "fashion" items.

i agree, i believe it's a part of nature, of survival. Most things in nature hunt and kill for their own survival. but to do it just to slaughter the animal for its fur and fashion reasons, or something just as bad, is just wrong (in my opinion) and disrespectful.

but i also agree with joli, why can't simple buyers be considered trophy hunters? most who purchase something with real fur want it to give some sort of message, like that of pride and accomplishment for hunters, usually one of wealth and status. They just hunt for something to show that they are superior, much like trophy hunters.

-- Edited by kisa at 23:59, 2008-07-14

DarkNeko · Veteran Member

kisa wrote:

i agree, i believe it's a part of nature, of survival. Most things in nature hunt and kill for their own survival. but to do it just to slaughter the animal for its fur and fashion reasons, or something just as bad, is just wrong (in my opinion) and disrespectful.

but i also agree with joli, why can't simple buyers be considered trophy hunters? most who purchase something with real fur want it to give some sort of message, like that of pride and accomplishment for hunters, usually one of wealth and status. They just hunt for something to show that they are superior, much like trophy hunters.

-- Edited by kisa at 23:59, 2008-07-14

Alright, I can accept that viewpoint. I never thought of it like that ^_^; and sorry if I seemed harsh....I tend to speak my mind >_<

-- Edited by DarkNeko at 00:16, 2008-07-15

kisa · Senior Member

don't worry hun, so do i. i love to debate and can sometimes get carried away... *smiles sheepishly*

Joli Minou · Senior Member

kisa wrote:

DarkNeko wrote:

I believe more in how the American Indians where when they had to kill a animal. They did it for food, clothing, shelter. No part of the animal was wasted and that I find respectable as it was (and some cultures is currently still) a way of life. As such I will not buy something that was killed just so it could be turned into a coat or a tail or any other such petty "fashion" items.

i agree, i believe it's a part of nature, of survival. Most things in nature hunt and kill for their own survival. but to do it just to slaughter the animal for its fur and fashion reasons, or something just as bad, is just wrong (in my opinion) and disrespectful.

but i also agree with joli, why can't simple buyers be considered trophy hunters? most who purchase something with real fur want it to give some sort of message, like that of pride and accomplishment for hunters, usually one of wealth and status. They just hunt for something to show that they are superior, much like trophy hunters.

-- Edited by kisa at 23:59, 2008-07-14

Magnificently put!

kisa · Senior Member

*blushes* why thank you ^.^

kitten130 · Veteran Member

I agree. There is a difference between needing it to stay warm when you have nothing else, and wanting it because its "cute".

MissAbsinthe · Senior Member

Big issue for me also, I have one of those fox tail butt plugs in question (the real fur ones) And on further research discovered there are 0 faux fox fur butt plugs out there, i'd start supplying them, but unlike kitten tails, I get a feeling they are much harder to craft. Surely there must be some faux fur material out there that can imitate the puffiness of fox fur?

But sadly this bdsm world does seem to focus on dead animal material :( specifically leather.

Here is a vegan bondage equipment site for you all.
http://www.fools-errant.com/bdsm/

Bestia Vinco · Senior Member

The site PurFurs sells nice faux fur fabric for anyone interested in making their own tails.

The furs are not cheep at $160/yard, but if you have the talent for sewing, maybe you can make them in batches and turn a profit or atleast break even.

Crystal · Senior Member

What's a debate without an opposing opinion?

One of those fox tails is on my wish-list. And here's why it being real doesn't bother me.
*Here comes the angry faces*

And here are my reasons:

1.The animal is already dead. I'm not going to the shelter and pointing at a puppy and saying
I want that one. My ordering of one is going to be just some one popping back to the warehouse
and pulling one out of a box. Although I understand I am supporting the industry but my decision to buy a single item will have a very small impact on the fur industry.

2.I do not support the death of 35 minks to make a jacket. That's just damn greedy.

3. I eat meat, steak especially... a lot of it actually with AI and and.. the point is what makes that cow's life less sacred than the foxes? It'd be hypocritical of me to be fine with eating one and not wearing another. Statistically I think it is an average meat eater is responsible for nine cow's death in their lifetime of enjoying their meaty goodness, 9 cows is a little more of an impact to 1 fox. But if I use that excuse what makes my life any important than the cow's...

Kitten · Senior Member

Crystal wrote:

1.The animal is already dead. I'm not going to the shelter and pointing at a puppy and saying
I want that one. My ordering of one is going to be just some one popping back to the warehouse
and pulling one out of a box. Although I understand I am supporting the industry but my decision to buy a single item will have a very small impact on the fur industry.

those are very valid reasons and i can understand them, but you point one has got me thinking - are the foxes being killed for their tails, or for other reasons, or are they one already found dead. and if they're hunted and killed, are then killed humanly, or are they simply having their tails cut of then being left to live - minus their tail

Crystal · Senior Member

I think your chances are good for any of the possibilities. Is it taken from a breeding facility where some loving grandmother type tries to make extra money by selling the pelts of the foxes that have died of old age? Or a horrible death camp for cute critters? Or someone who hunts them for food and pelt? You have a chance of any of the options good or bad.

KittenMaster · Veteran Member

Myself, I was once a level 6 vegan - I would never eat anything with a shadow. :)

I am not sure if it is that my ethics have slipped or not, but over the years I have returned to eating cheese (but rennetless). I still don't drink milk, and certainly don't buy animal products. But I eat dairy in restaurants. So I consider myself like maybe a level 2 vegan these days.

And then I got a kitten... Kittens cannot be vegan. They need vitamin A, taurine, and arachadonic acid. And there is certainly an aesthetic to seeing my little kitten lap up milk. So... I do buy animal products for my kitten. To karmically pay for this, I have decided to stop eating eggs. All part of my own personal karmic kapitalism. Every action has its consequences and it's karmic cost.

And then there is that fox tail... probably the most ethically questionable purchase that I have made in the past decade (other than my SUV). The little kitten insisted that she be allowed to be a fox... that she wanted to be hunted... I told her that I didn't think she had it in her to actually run away... and she didn't for many many months... but then, one day, she ran... naturally, I gave chase, and caught her. It wasn't really much of a chase, but she earned her prize.

The epilogue to the story is that this tail has an ENORMOUS (read: MAN sized) plug... it doesn't even fit her... yet...

Did I mention that every action has its consequences?

-- Edited by KittenMaster at 21:54, 2008-07-15

Kitten · Senior Member

i did at one point want a real fur stole, but then found a lot of them still have the heads - was very put off by that *shivers*

lol i agree - everything has its consquence

DarkNeko · Veteran Member

*Sigh* To balance things out also Crystal has valid points, I'm probablly going to get booed and shunned for this also *Get's ready to dodge*...

Crystal is right, you really never know. I have a fox tail which I own given to me by a friend (but I was never a big fox person and a little confused why it was given,so I just keep it next to a picture of them for sentimental reasons), and I also own a leather jacket and gloves. The jacket and gloves came from a friend of the family's which swore that the animal they used was dead due to naturual age.

Do we know if people are telling the truth? No we never really do. Does this mean that people always lie? No there are honest and truthful people in the world. Is it often we can figure out one from the other? Hardly.

~DN

-- Edited by DarkNeko at 21:53, 2008-07-15

MissAbsinthe · Senior Member

KittenMaster wrote:

Myself, I was once a level 6 vegan - I would never eat anything with a shadow. :)

I am not sure if it is that my ethics have slipped or not, but over the years I have returned to eating cheese (but rennetless). I still don't drink milk, and certainly don't buy animal products. But I eat dairy in restaurants. So I consider myself like maybe a level 2 vegan these days.

And then I got a kitten... Kittens cannot be vegan. They need vitamin A, taurine, and arachadonic acid. And there is certainly an aesthetic to seeing my little kitten lap up milk. So... I do buy animal products for my kitten. To karmically pay for this, I have decided to stop eating eggs. All part of my own personal karmic kapitalism. Every action has its consequences and it's karmic cost.

And then there is that fox tail... probably the most ethically questionable purchase that I have made in the past decade (other than my SUV). The little kitten insisted that she be allowed to be a fox... that she wanted to be hunted... I told her that I didn't think she had it in her to actually run away... and she didn't for many many months... but then, one day, she ran... naturally, I gave chase, and caught her. It wasn't really much of a chase, but she earned her prize.

The epilogue to the story is that this tail has an ENORMOUS (read: MAN sized) plug... it doesn't even fit her... yet...

Did I mention that every action has its consequences?

-- Edited by KittenMaster at 21:50, 2008-07-15

Yet!? *Fear*

KittenMaster · Veteran Member

Don't worry, forum... I'll take video and post photos for you all :)

Kitten · Senior Member

lol......poor Miss A

MissAbsinthe · Senior Member

*gawk*

Faete · Senior Member

KittenMaster wrote:

Don't worry, forum... I'll take video and post photos for you all :)

*purr* :) Poor MissA.

But yay us.

kitten130 · Veteran Member

Remember, you're doing it for us Miss A!!
Be brave, and courageous, and prove to us it IS possible to take a big one!

Just...try not to get cave butt, ok?

Thanks.

kisa · Senior Member

Crystal wrote:

1.The animal is already dead. I'm not going to the shelter and pointing at a puppy and saying
I want that one. My ordering of one is going to be just some one popping back to the warehouse
and pulling one out of a box. Although I understand I am supporting the industry but my decision to buy a single item will have a very small impact on the fur industry.

2.I do not support the death of 35 minks to make a jacket. That's just damn greedy.

3. I eat meat, steak especially... a lot of it actually with AI and and.. the point is what makes that cow's life less sacred than the foxes? It'd be hypocritical of me to be fine with eating one and not wearing another. Statistically I think it is an average meat eater is responsible for nine cow's death in their lifetime of enjoying their meaty goodness, 9 cows is a little more of an impact to 1 fox. But if I use that excuse what makes my life any important than the cow's...

which is why i put the disclaimer that i wasn't trying to attack anyone. you do have some valid points. to me, it's personal preferance. i have no problem with eating meat...in some twisted modern way, it's survival (whole other debate) but just to wear for pleasures sake? it seems frivolous. and any action can have an impact, the only thing that's stopping it is if an individual doesn't think it will. but that is just my opinion.

Crystal · Senior Member

Wow, I'm really joyful that I wasn't crucified for saying my opinion. A message board free of angry belligerent posts hell hath frozen over.

Ice skates for everyone!

kitten130 · Veteran Member

Crystal wrote:

Ice skates for everyone!

Thanks but..I cant skate

kisa · Senior Member

kitten130 wrote:

Crystal wrote:

Ice skates for everyone!

Thanks but..I cant skate

v.v neither can i

kitten130 · Veteran Member

I'm willing to try

Crystal · Senior Member

xD

Kitten · Senior Member

i can skate, i just fall down :p

HisKytten · Veteran Member

Anyone willing to skin an animal just for the fur should think about it this way; Would you like it if some one rasied you in a tight little farm just to steal your skin?

kitten130 · Veteran Member

Kitten wrote:

i can skate, i just fall down :p

Fall down, go boom? biggrin I do. Then I go A HA HAHA HAHAHAHA!!!!

marcos · Veteran Member

Crystal wrote:

What's a debate without an opposing opinion?

One of those fox tails is on my wish-list. And here's why it being real doesn't bother me.
*Here comes the angry faces*

And here are my reasons:

1.The animal is already dead. I'm not going to the shelter and pointing at a puppy and saying
I want that one. My ordering of one is going to be just some one popping back to the warehouse
and pulling one out of a box. Although I understand I am supporting the industry but my decision to buy a single item will have a very small impact on the fur industry.

2.I do not support the death of 35 minks to make a jacket. That's just damn greedy.

3. I eat meat, steak especially... a lot of it actually with AI and and.. the point is what makes that cow's life less sacred than the foxes? It'd be hypocritical of me to be fine with eating one and not wearing another. Statistically I think it is an average meat eater is responsible for nine cow's death in their lifetime of enjoying their meaty goodness, 9 cows is a little more of an impact to 1 fox. But if I use that excuse what makes my life any important than the cow's...

I agree on this one. To be truely honest I do not care wheter I buy real fur of fake. As long as it feels it is the right item I will buy it. For the moment I am looking to buy a Fox Tail butt plug. I realy love to have one off these. If I can find a site where I can buy one without needing a credit card I defo will.

The_Sequel · Veteran Member

My morality also leans on the side of pro-meat pro-fur etc. I have a few leather coats (a few because some of them were my grandfather's or have fit me for years), etc. etc. And I eat my share of meat products, much to the chagrin of my sister. So here is my abridged meat code:

1. Something can be killed, as long as all of it is used in some fashion (Meat, bones and all)
2. If something is dead...it's dead...anything you do to the body is A-okay. This includes humans.
3. Humans are no holier than any other animal...especially if they're dumber than the animal they're compared to (which is sometimes the case).
4. PETA leaders are crazy. PETA masses are not very intelligent, as most of them don't know the "final solution" of the organization they support. Just...don't get me started on them.
5. Ted Nugent....is too awesome to say anything bad about.
5. Meat eating is natural...more natural than anything most vegitarians eat...all those chemicals and stuff. And my sister does this, I've seen some of the food she eats. Not a speck of it was grown...all made in a laboratory. We have canines, and a smaller intestinal system like carnivores (herbivores have larger intestinal systems). Many people say "well naturally humans could have lives off beans and whatnot for their protein, blah blah blah" but the plants they claim don't grow everywhere, and certainly not where humankind was claimed to begin.

Um...that's it...I think. At least that's all I remember. Of course I have no ill feelings towards vegitarian/vegans or people opposed to fur. Again, my sister does it, I'm used to it. Just don't try to push it on me...and don't be pretentious about it. biggrin

Rasari · Member

Personally, I don't have issue with fur...

I eat meat. I LOVE meat. I like my steaks rare. I also eat venison, fish and other meat types. I'll even eat many meats completely raw.

And I wear leather. Because after all, if I'm willing to eat the cow's meat... Wearing its hide isn't a big step from there.

Its not that I have no sympathy for animals... I do...

But I also see them all as having places. A cow is a prey animal. They're bred and raised specifically for producing foods and goods. As a species, they're in no way endangered. Though there are certain breeds that are near whiped out (same with some horse and poultry breeds). Now, products made from endangered species is another story. But farm bred and raised animals... I don't take issue with. As a shameless meat eater... That would be a tad hypocritical... And I do love the feal of fur, suede and leather.

And while faux fur offers comparible visual aesthetic... It doesn't have the same sensual aspects of fur.

Personally, I intend to use real fur with my outfits. Particularly rabbit. Its sensual, and its more primal to me. And its the primal aspects of my sexuality and nature that I embrace and love.

Kitten Morris · Veteran Member

I'm an animal lover, so real fur is a no-no for me. Master doesn't care, but I do. My tail is beaten up and old, so my next tail I'm going to get will be faux fur as well.

LilithPride · Senior Member

I join the tribal culture ethics of what is not used is disrespected. My tails will mainly be faux but I will tell you right out most of those foxes were not killed for their tails, they were killed by farmers on a hunt to keep their chickens safe *shudder* so at least in selling the tail the fox is not killed only for the fact that it was viewed as a pest.....

The ethical argument of furs really for me goes into the what is being used, and if I saw beautiful fur tails I would have to buy them!!!! it's so disrespectful if that tail was made at the expense of a life and no one cherishes it.... It's wrong to kill without need, but I also see it as wrong to take the need away from a kill. If someone died to supply an item for consumption, then it better be consumed. Otherwise I see it as a terrible denouncement of the value of life.

I'm an anti vegan partly because I'm a kitty and partly because I believe in nature. Homo Sapien Sapien is an omnivore with a stomach for many foods and this allows it to fit well within most natural habitats. Being an omnivore does not so much mean that Homo Sapien Sapien has the ability to select a specific type of food, it instead means that Homo Sapien Sapien is meant to eat a diversity of foods. I believe that Vegans are in essence commiting herbicide in the idea that something makes plants lives less meaningful than the lives of other things. It's simply a fact in our world that life feeds off of life and thrives through competition. If Homo Sapien Sapien had not seperated itself from nature this would not be an issue as we would eat what we could find. But to me heavy duty agriculture only leads to a worser attack on the basic food chain. Homo Sapien Sapien in denouncing it's bonds to the planet has been attacking life for quite a while. If plants become our only food then what happens to the many animals which Homo Sapien Sapien has domesticated for consumption? Will they become common pests like mice and groundhogs? Agriculture in western society is in no way pro life. Agriculturalists pick what things they feel will be good food and eradicate all that is not beneficial to that food from the land. Millions of species are wiped out all the time due to the desire to have tomatoes or bananas. As far as I'm concerned food is a bad ethical battleground because consuming life in essence is unheard of ethically. I don't want some person coming up to me though and discussing how the Human's life is more important than the cow's life, and the cow's life is more important than the grasses life. You eat a tomato you are just as guilty of being alive as me with my fish!!!

Really sorry for that rant, I just see this place as somewhere I can find those that understand human life is of no particular importance.

MasterKazugami · Member

I want to say I'm against it, though if I did then in my picture I'd get commented on about my leather jacket so its awkward to comment on.
I had written out a post about I was against it, though if against it why should I put myself at the exception with wearing a leather jacket?
I find this is a good and tricky question to answer.

Like I love leather, leather to me is a very big kink of mine and its rare for me to go anywhere without a leather jacket.
I would never stop wearing leather but I'd be a hypocrite to say I disliked fur.